【英文原声版20】Jim Campbell： The Souls of Blac

　　英文文稿+中文翻译 

　　

　　What happened in America after the Civil War?

　　南北战争后美国发生了什么？

　　James Campbell: Let me start by telling you a little bit about Du Bois, who, I think, is probably not as well-known or remembered today as perhaps he ought to be. He may be the most prolific writer that this country’s ever produced. He was born in 1868. He took pride in noting that he was born during radical reconstruction, the same week that Andrew Johnson was impeached. He died 95 years later as an exile in Ghana in West Africa, the night before Martin Luther King gave his I Have a Dream speech at the March on Washington. During most of that 95 years, he was writing.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：首先，让我来向你们介绍一下杜波依斯。他在当今可能不那么出名，不过我觉得他值得被更多人铭记。杜波依斯或许是美国有史以来最高产的作家。他对自己出生于1868年而感到自豪，因为当时美国正处于激进的重建时期，安德鲁·约翰逊总统也是在他出生的那周被弹劾的。晚年约翰逊移居到地处非洲西部的加纳，95岁时的一个晚上在那里去世。在他去世的而第二天，马丁·路德·金在华盛顿大游行时发表了“我有一个梦想”的演讲。在生命的大部分时间里，杜波依斯都在写作。

　　Zachary Davis: W.E.B. Du Bois began his writing career at the age of 12, when he became his town’s correspondent for the New York Age, the largest Black newspaper in the country at the time. He continued publishing until he died—and beyond. His final autobiography was published after his death.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：威廉·爱德华·布格哈特·杜波依斯12岁就开启了自己的写作生涯，在当时全美最大的黑人报纸《纽约时代》做记者。他生前就不断有作品出版，甚至去世后他还有作品出版。他的最后一部自传就出版于他去世之后。

　　James Campbell: So during that 85 plus years of writing, he produced three novels, four novels, several classic works of nonfiction. He edited several newspapers, including The Crisis, the NAACP’s monthly magazine, which was sort of his personal broadsheet for the better part of 25 years. He wrote poetry. He published a short book of prayers. He’s just an extraordinarily prolific writer. And I think of all of his work, the one that has, stands today as really one of the classics of American literature is The Souls of Black Folk.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：在超过85年的写作生涯中，他创作了三四部小说和几本非虚构类作品，主编了几份报刊，包括美国有色人种协进会的月刊《危机》。这份月刊可以视作他个人近25年里的大事记。杜波依斯还创作诗歌，出版了一本简短的祈祷书。他确实是一位极其高产的作家。在他的所有作品中，我觉得有一本如今已成为美国文学经典之一，那就是《黑人的灵魂》。

　　Zachary Davis: Welcome to Writ Large, a podcast about how books change the world. I’m Zachary Davis. In each episode, I talk with one of the world’s leading scholars about one book that changed the course of history. For this episode, I sat down with James Campbell, a professor of history at Stanford University, to discuss The Souls of Black Folk.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：欢迎收听：100本改变你和世界的书，在这里我们为大家讲述改变世界的书籍。我是扎卡里·戴维斯。每一集，我都会和一位世界顶尖学者探讨一本影响历史进程的书。在本集，我和斯坦福大学历史教授詹姆斯·坎贝尔一起讨论《黑人的灵魂》。

　　

　　Zachary Davis: The Souls of Black Folk was published in 1903, forty years after the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation, which officially outlawed slavery in the United States.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：《黑人的灵魂》于1903年出版，距离《解放黑人奴隶宣言》的签署已经过去了40年。那部宣言正式废除了美国的奴隶制。

　　James Campbell: At one level, one can kind of read it as a status report of what 40 years of freedom have meant. But it's also a response to the particular moment in which he's writing. The period after the Civil War was the period that historians know as reconstruction produced a kind of brief attempt to not only incorporate the formerly enslaved as full citizens, to guarantee them equal protection of the laws in the Fourteenth Amendment to our Constitution, but also to guarantee to black men the right to vote, the 15th Amendment of the Constitution.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：从一个层面上讲，我们可以把这本书看作对这40年间美国黑人解放情况的报告。不过这本书也是对作者当时所处时期的一种回应。南北战争后的时期被历史学家称为“重建时期”，那段时间里人们做出了一点尝试，颁布了宪法第十四条修正案，让原先的奴隶成为真正的公民，让他们受到平等的法律保护；此外还出台了第十五条修正案来保障黑人的选举权。

　　James Campbell: And what followed was a brief and remarkable experiment in interracial democracy in which black people voted and served in both state and the United States congress, sat in constitutional conventions that rewrote the southern state constitutions, in legislatures that created the first public school system in the south, and did away with barbarities such as debtor's prison and so forth. But that brief kind of seed time of democratic promise was cut short by what historians known as the process of Southern redemption.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：随后便开始了短暂却引人注目的跨种族民主的尝试：黑人享有选举权，并在州议会和美国国会任职；召开了重新制定南方各州宪法的立法会议；建立了南方首个公立学校系统；取缔了债务人监狱等野蛮行为。但这场短暂民主试验的苗头被历史学家所说的“南方救赎”所掐断了。

　　Zachary Davis: During southern redemption, white people across the south were calling for the return to the way things were before the Civil War. They wanted white supremacy, not interracial democracy. They wanted to remove rights for Black people, not expand them. By the time The Souls of Black Folk was published in 1903, the South was in the age of Jim Crow law. These laws enforced the separation of Black and white Americans across the United States. Black people were cut off politically, educationally, and socially from the dominant white culture.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：在南方救赎期间，南方的白人呼吁恢复南北战争之前的状况。他们想要白人至上，而不是跨种族民主。这些白人想剥夺黑人的权利，禁止扩大黑人的权利。1903年《黑人的灵魂》出版时，南方仍实施着“吉姆·克罗法”。这些法律迫使美国的黑人与白人隔离。黑人在政治、教育和社会上都与白人主流文化相隔绝。

　　Zachary Davis: It is against this backdrop that Du Bois writes The Souls of Black Folk. The book consists of 14 essays, with titles like “Of the Dawn of Freedom”， “Of the Meaning of Progress”， and  “Of the Training of Black Men”. In the book, Du Bois discusses three main topics: the role of education, the interior lives of Black people, and the creation of American culture.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：正是在这种背景下，杜波依斯撰写了《黑人的灵魂》。这本书包含14篇文章，题目为“论自由的曙光”、“论进步的意义”、“论黑人的教育”等等。在书中，杜波依斯讨论了三个主要话题：教育的作用、黑人的精神生活以及美国文化的塑造。

　　What’s the battle between Du Bois and Washington?

　　杜波依斯和华盛顿在争论什么？

　　Zachary Davis: The book challenges the materialism of the early 20th century, pushing back against the idea that Black people should only be trained in useful crafts—an idea championed by another leading Black writer, Booker T. Washington.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书挑战了20世纪初期的物质主义，反驳了另一位重要的黑人作家布克·托利弗·华盛顿的观点，后者认为只应当对黑人进行实用的手艺活训练。

　　Zachary Davis: Washington was a Black educator, orator, and political adviser to multiple American presidents. Unlike Du Bois, Washington was born into slavery. He was born on a Virginia plantation in 1856 and freed by the Emancipation Proclamation in 1865. He was nine years old. He taught himself to read, but he had to work, so he wasn’t able to attend regular school. Eventually, he managed to enroll in a college in Virginia, but continued to support himself with jobs throughout.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：华盛顿是黑人教育家、演说家，也是多位美国总统的政治顾问。他于1856年出生在弗吉尼亚州的一个种植园，当时还是奴隶制，这点和杜波伊斯生活的时代完全不同。《解放黑人奴隶宣言》颁布后，华盛顿才终于在1865年获得自由。那一年他9岁。他自学读书，但因为不得不去工作，所以无法上正规学校。最终，他成功进入弗吉尼亚州的一所学院上学，不过在读期间他继续打工来养活自己。

　　Zachary Davis: Du Bois, on the other hand, was born free, in the northern state of Massachusetts, his mother’s family owned land. He went to an integrated public high school, and he attended Fisk University in Tennessee. He paid for his schooling with donations from his neighbors. After Fisk, he went to Harvard for a second bachelor’s degree, and then became the first Black person to earn a PhD in History at Harvard. He then studied in Germany, at the University of Berlin, where he nearly earned a second doctorate.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：而杜波依斯则出生在马萨诸塞州北部，在那里，他母亲的家族有一块私人领地，而杜波依斯出生时便是自由人。他上了一所综合性的公立高中，后来去了田纳西州的菲斯克大学，用邻居们的捐款来支付学费。毕业之后，他去哈佛读了第二个学士学位，后来还成为史上第一位在哈佛获得历史博士学位的黑人。在哈佛读完学士后，他又去德国的柏林大学深造，在那里几乎获得了第二个博士学位。

　　Zachary Davis: Washington and Du Bois were both deeply invested in elevating Black Americans, but they had lived very different lives, and they had very different visions for how best to achieve their goal.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：华盛顿和杜波依斯都致力于改善美国黑人的处境，但他们过着截然不同的生活，对于如何最好地实现自己的目标也有着截然不同的看法。

　　James Campbell: The gravamen of the dispute between Du Bois and Washington I think was partly about competing theories of how races advance. Washington really had this kind of bottom up, lift yourself by the bootstraps that black people would be for the time being confined to menial positions, but if they worked hard and applied themselves and didn't allow themselves to worry about things like voting, that somehow they could gradually rise. And as he said, in a metaphor characteristic of him and of the age of a man is worth a dollar, he'll be treated as a dollar. I think Du Bois found that vision appalling. What does it mean to say that a human being is worth a dollar?

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：我觉得杜波依斯和华盛顿的分歧，部分是对黑人种族如何进步的分歧。华盛顿认为要自下而上地自力更生，虽然黑人会暂时陷于这些琐碎的杂活中，但只要他们努力工作，好好奉献，不要操心选举权之类的事，他们在社会中的处境会慢慢好转。正如他说，假如自己或同时代的其他人有一美元的价值，那别人才会觉得他值一美元。我想杜波依斯估计觉得这个想法简直骇人听闻。什么叫一个活生生的人值一美元？

　　Zachary Davis: Washington was on the side of materialism. He believed that Black men couldn’t advance through politics or intellectual pursuits, and instead, they should dedicate themselves to labor. When he was 25, Washington was selected to be the head of a newly established school for African Americans called the Tuskegee Institute.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：华盛顿认同的是物质主义。他认为黑人无法通过政治或思想追求来改善处境，他们应当投身于体力劳动。他在25岁时被任命为塔斯基吉学院的校长，这所学校是当时新成立的美国黑人学校。

　　James Campbell: The educational philosophy of Tuskegee Institute was to train black people in industrial trades and more broadly in habits of industry to give a group of people who allegedly had never acquired a work ethic because they'd always worked under compulsion. The kind of internal discipline that they needed to work hard in menial positions.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：塔斯基吉学院的教育理念是为黑人提供工业贸易以及更广泛的工业需求方面的培训，从而培养一群遵守工作伦理的人。这些人自称从来不知道什么工作伦理，因为自己一直被强迫着不停工作。所谓工作伦理，就是他们认真做杂活时需要遵循的内在准则。

　　James Campbell: Du Bois didn't deny that it was useful to train people to do necessary work, and that people needed useful training and that industrial education was appropriate. But he also believed that races advance not simply from the ground up, but through visionary leadership, through people, what he called the talented tenth people who were broadly educated, people who were versed in the kind of accumulated wisdom of civilization. People who understood what he called the technique of civilization. And it was these this kind of vanguard that pull the race forward.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：杜波依斯并不否认必备的工作培训是有用的，人们需要实用的培训，所以工业教育正合适。但除此之外，他还认为改善黑人种族的处境不仅需要自下而上，还需要借助富有远见的领导者来动员民众，也就是他所说的“有天赋的十分之一”这类人。他们接受过广泛的教育，通晓人类文明积累起来的智慧，即他所说的“文明技能”。正是这些先行者才能引领整个种族前进。

　　James Campbell: It's a very elitist kind of point of view that doesn't really translate very well into our age. But I think in the context of the moment, he really worried that Washington was making any access to higher education and therefore any pathways to broad leadership among black people impossible.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：这个观点非常精英主义，放在如今或许不那么恰如其分。但我认为，就当时而言，他真的担心华盛顿这么做会让黑人失去接受任何高等教育的机会，进而失去广泛领导黑人民众的途径。

　　Zachary Davis: The differences between their worldviews can be seen in one anecdote from Washington’s autobiography, Up From Slavery. He tells a story of walking along a southern dirt road and seeing a run-down shack with a yard covered in weeds.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：在华盛顿的自传《超越奴役》中，有一则故事可以体现两人世界观的差异。他讲了一个故事：自己沿着南方的一条泥巴路走着，看到一个破旧的棚屋，院子里长满了杂草。

　　James Campbell: And in the weed-strewn yard is a young black man in a pair of greasy overalls reading a French grammar. And for Washington, this is the kind of acme of absurdities. You know, the guy should obviously be repairing his house and mowing the lawn and laundering his clothes, which were all, of course, the skills that you would learn at his Tuskegee Institute.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：在杂草丛生的院子里，一个年轻的黑人穿着油乎乎的工装裤，在看一本法语语法书。在华盛顿看来，这种行为简直荒谬至极。要知道，这个人显然应该去修理房屋、修剪草坪、洗衣服。当然，这些都是在塔斯基吉学院会学到的技能。

　　James Campbell: The episode actually tells the story different ways, different times. Probably never happened. But it resonated with not only the kind of prevailing white supremacist temper of the time, but with also the kind of materialistic temper of the late 19th and early 20th century.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：这件事其实多次以不同的方式被讲述，或许它压根就没发生过。但它不仅迎合了当时盛行的白人至上主义，也迎合了19世纪末、20世纪初的物质主义。

　　James Campbell: Du Bois in Souls of Black Folk seizes on that, and he says, one wonders what Plato would have said about that. What is absurd about this? What is absurd about a black person reading French grammar, speaking French? And so Du Bois kind of joins him on that and makes a claim about partly for purposes of racial leadership, but partly also just, you know, a broader sense of humanity. He says, yeah, you know, it is perfectly appropriate to make carpenters, he says. But the role of education is to make men.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：杜波依斯在《黑人的灵魂》中便抨击了这个故事。他说，想知道柏拉图对此会怎么说。这有什么荒谬的？一个黑人读法语语法、说法语有什么荒谬的？于是杜波依斯也加入了他的这场讨论。他的主张一方面是为了培养种族领袖，另一方面也是出于更普世的人文主义思想。他说，嗯，你知道培养木匠确实不错，但教育的作用在于培养真正的人。

　　How did Du Bois see Black Americans’ interior life?

　　杜波依斯如何看待美国黑人的精神生活？

　　Zachary Davis: Washington focused on the exterior world. He believed that manual labor mattered, and that output was the ultimate measure of success. But to Du Bois, the interior lives of Black people were more important.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：华盛顿关注的是外在世界。他认为体力劳动很重要，而劳动成果是衡量成功与否的最终标准。但对于杜波依斯而言，黑人的精神生活更为重要。

　　James Campbell: One of the controlling metaphors of the book that he introduces at the very beginning is the metaphor of the veil—that black people are surrounded by a veil, and that veil both occludes to them, a vision of a wider society. They see the world through this veil. But it also means that they are invisible or unrecognizable to people outside. So part of what he tries to do is he describes himself as kind of lifting the veil in both senses of that metaphor. Right? Trying to help black people to soar beyond the veil and participate in the broader kingdom of culture, but also to lift the veil into the interior life of black people.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：他在书的开头就用到了一个贯穿全书的隐喻，那就是“面纱”。黑人被面纱笼罩着，面纱阻挡着他们看到更广阔的的社会图景，他们只能透过面纱看到朦胧影像；同时，面纱也让外界看不到或是察觉不到黑人的存在。所以他将自己试图在做的事情比作揭开这背负着双重意义的面纱。他试图帮黑人揭开面纱，让他们参与到更广阔的的文化中，同时也为世人揭开遮盖着黑人精神生活的面纱。

　　Zachary Davis: Du Bois tells a story that addresses both the veil and the purpose of education—a sort of counter-story to Washington’s tale of seeing the man reading a French grammar. When Du Bois was studying at Fisk University in Tennessee, students were required to teach during the summer. In The Souls of Black Folk, Du Bois tells a story about walking through the Tennessee hills until he comes across a place to settle, and a family that will house him, and he opens a school. There, he meets a woman named Josie.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：杜波依斯讲了一个既涉及面纱又涉及教育目的的故事，和华盛顿的黑人读法语语法书的故事有点相反。杜波依斯在田纳西州的菲斯克大学上学时，学生被要求在夏季教书。他在《黑人的灵魂》中讲了一个当时发生的故事：他徒步穿过田纳西州山丘，直到遇到了一个落脚的地方，可以寄住在一户家庭里，于是他在那里开了所学校。在那儿他遇到了一个叫乔茜的女子。

　　James Campbell: She had about her a certain fineness, the shadow of an unconscious moral heroism that would willingly give all of life to make life broader, deeper and fuller for her and hers. I saw much of this family afterwards and grew to love them for their honest efforts to be decent and comfortable and for their knowledge of their own ignorance.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：她自身有种美好的特质，有点不自觉的道德英雄主义倾向，愿意穷尽毕生让生活更广阔、更深入、更全面。后来我见到了这个家庭里的许多人，我渐渐对他们产生了好感，他们为了让自己更舒适体面而勤勤恳恳地努力，而且他们也清楚自己的无知之处。

　　James Campbell: But so Josie starts to attend his school, and there's so many other, kind of, immediate demands on her life. And yet he sees in her again this kind of yearning for a world beyond the veil. In any event, he tells it's quite a beautiful chapter where he talks about this young appetite whetted to an edge by school and story and half awake and thought, he's weak wings that beat against the barriers, barriers of caste, of youth, of life.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：乔茜开始去杜波依斯开的学校上学了，她的生活还充斥着许多其他更为迫切的需求，但杜波依斯再次从她身上看到了对面纱之外世界的渴望。无论如何，这段经历都很美好。学校和奇闻异事让乔茜这个求知若渴的小脑袋憧憬得不行，让她辗转反侧，苦苦思索；而自己蜻蜓点水般的启发叩开了那些针对种族阶层、年纪和生活的重重阻碍。

　　Zachary Davis: Josie didn’t have much access to education, but she had a deep desire to move beyond her circumstances. Du Bois finished his time teaching, and returned to Fisk. A decade later, he went back to the little town and found it entirely changed. His schoolhouse was gone. The people were suffering. And Josie had died.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：乔茜受教育的机会并不多，但她渴望摆脱自己的处境。杜波依斯完成他的夏季教学后，回到了菲斯克大学。十年后，他回到小镇，发现那里彻底变了。他的学校不见了，人们正经受着苦难，而乔茜已经不在人世了。

　　James Campbell: My journey was done. And behind me, lay hill and dale and life and death. How shall man measure progress there where the dark faced Jose lies? How many hearts full of sorrow shall balance a bushel of wheat? How hard a thing is life to the lowly? And yet how human and real. And all this life and love and strife and failure is at the twilight of nightfall, or the flush of some faint dawning dawn. Thus, sadly, musing, I rode to Nashville in the Jim Crow car.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：旅程结束了。我身后山峦层叠，生者残喘，逝者长眠。在小黑皮乔茜安息的地方，人们要如何衡量进步？多少盛满悲伤的心才能换来一蒲式耳的小麦？贫民们要多苦多累日子才能过得去？可这就是人生，这就是现实。所有生命、爱、冲突与失败都处于夜幕将尽，或是黎明拂晓时。于是我拖着伤感的心，在沉思中乘着黑人专用车去往纳什维尔。

　　James Campbell: How many hearts full of sorrow shall balance a bushel of wheat? It's hard to imagine a more succinct or eloquent response to the world that Booker T. Washington and his sponsors offer.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：多少盛满悲伤的心才能换来一蒲式耳的小麦？很难想象还有什么话能更简洁传神地回应布克·托利弗·华盛顿和其支持者的构想。

　　Zachary Davis: You mentioned that part of Du Bois's interest is in black interiority. And could you explain a little bit about his concept of double consciousness?

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：您刚刚提到了，杜波依斯感兴趣的是黑人的精神生活。您可以稍微解释一下他的“双重意识”思想吗？

　　James Campbell: The passage in which that comes, in fact, I think is actually more interesting than double consciousness. He's not necessarily referring, it seems to me in that passage, to a vision of black people as kind of culturally divided or hybrid. He's making a point about a kind of nagging self-doubt or self-censoring that happens or self-consciousness, perhaps, that happens in the context of living in a racist society. Let me read you the whole paragraph.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：其实我觉得书中的一段文字比双重意识更有趣。在那段文字里，他认为黑人未来不一定要在文化上分割或糅合。他强调要在种族主义社会中不断自我怀疑、自我审视、自我觉察。我来读一下这一整段：

　　James Campbell: “After the Egyptian and Indian, the Greek and Roman, the Teuton and the Mongolian, the Negro is a sort of seventh son, born with a veil and gifted with second sight in the American world, a world which yields him no true self-consciousness, but only lets him see himself through the revelation of the other world. It is a peculiar sensation, this double consciousness, the sense of always looking at oneself through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on an amused contempt and pity whenever feels his two-ness.”

　　詹姆士·坎贝尔：“继埃及人、印度人、希腊人、罗马人、日耳曼人和蒙古人之后，黑人是所谓的第七子，生来就带有面纱，在美国世界被赋予了第二洞察力。这个世界没有赐予他真正的自我觉察力，仅仅让他接触另一个世界来审视自我。这是种奇异的感觉，是双重意识：永远以别人的眼光来审视自己，以世界的影像来衡量自己的灵魂。而这个世界每当发觉到他的双重意识，就会生出可笑的蔑视与怜悯。”

　　James Campbell: So that sense and I think, you know, many African-American people today would still recognize it of a kind of burden of representativity, of knowing that you are being scrutinized, that your actions and statements as an individual are being seen through a haze of racial and racist preconceptions that people aren't seeing you as you. And what that does to live with that and to know that you are continually being monitored by that normative white gaze and to know that any of your failings would very quickly be assimilated into a broader interpretation of the deficiencies of a broader group of people. That, to me, is what is mostly trying to get at is that kind of interior experience of living in the context of a normative white gaze.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：在我看来，如今许多美国黑人仍然会把双重意识看作一种代表性的负担。你知道自己在接受审视，自己个人的言行举止被从模糊的种族主义视角去解读，人们并没有把你仅仅看作你。你生活在这些意见中，清楚自己承受着白人标准下的检阅目光，清楚自己的任何丁点过错都会被迅速归结为整个种族的缺陷。我觉得这是杜波依斯努力传达的内容：那种承受着白人标准下的检阅目光的精神体验。

　　James Campbell: The gentle readers to whom he addresses himself in the foreword of the book, the people to whom he says, I'm going to pull back the veil and allow you to see the interior life of this group of people who you think you know, but you don't. That audience is a white American audience. And I think in its time into this day, far too few white Americans have read the book or thought about it.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：他在书的前言中说，温和的读者，我将揭开面纱，让你们看看这群人的精神生活。你们自以为了解这些人，但其实并非如此。他设想的读者是美国白人，但我觉得从他那时起，读过或是了解过这本书的美国白人少之又少。

　　How did Du Bois see their status in American civilization?

　　杜波依斯如何看待黑人在美国文化中的地位？

　　Zachary Davis: The third major point that The Souls of Black Folk makes is about the place of Black people in America.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：这本书的第三个要点是黑人在美国的地位。

　　James Campbell: You know, one of the qualities that I think defines the human experience is our search for meaning. Our search for explanation and particularly to find some meaning and explanation in the experience of suffering and during and in the aftermath of slavery. There was an enormous amount of attention and reflection on this problem, among African-American people. You know, why would a loving God, a God who allowed no sparrow to fall, but by his hand subject an entire race of people to the agony and humiliation of centuries of enslavement in a foreign land?

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：要知道，在我看来代表人类经验的一个特质就是我们对意义的追寻。我们寻求解释，尤其是在经历苦难以及奴隶制的创伤时，我们会追寻它们的意义。我们要对美国黑人群体这个问题进行大规模的关注与反思。为什么慈爱的上帝不会抛下一只麻雀，却亲手让整个种族在异乡经受百年奴役的痛苦与屈辱？

　　James Campbell: Du Bois finds it in a really unlikely way in this notion that somehow, even in the context of slavery and humiliation, black and white people were sharing their gifts. There's a recognition of what I might call the black whiteness of American society, of the way in which, notwithstanding the horrors of slavery and of Jim Crow exclusion, black people had brought their gifts to American society and created in their relationship with white people a culture unlike any other that existed in the world. The sorrow songs of the slaves, he says, are the only true American music.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：杜波依斯对这个观点有着不可思议的解读。他认为即使在奴隶制和黑人遭受屈辱的情况下，黑人和白人也在分享自己的贡献。他认可所谓的“融合了黑人特质的美国白人社会”：尽管奴隶制的阴影和吉姆·克罗法造成的种族隔离尚未消失，但黑人为美国社会带来了贡献，在与白人的相处中创造出一种举世无双的文化。他还认为，奴隶的悲歌是唯一纯粹的美国音乐。

　　Zachary Davis: American culture is not white culture or Black culture—it’s a combination. And Du Bois urged his readers to recognize the contributions of all races. Du Bois has been a hugely influential figure among Black readers.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：美国文化不是单纯的白人文化或黑人文化，而是多种族文化的融合。杜波依斯希望读者能认可所有种族的贡献。杜波依斯一直是黑人读者中极具影响力的人物。

　　James Campbell: I think one would be really hard pressed to find any black intellectual, you know, from the time this book was published to the present, who didn't read him, who didn't grapple with them, who didn't understand that somehow the task that Du Bois had set for himself of simultaneously trying to evoke for kind of clueless white audience the complexity, interiority richness of an African-American world, and at the same time, to hold up to black people a vision of a broader, wider kingdom of culture, which they had every right to. I think there's just not a want to be hard pressed to find any black writer who didn't read him, wasn't influenced by him. So you know, he remains in African-American circles and in African American studies courses at places like Stanford. You know, kind of canonical figure.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：我觉得很难找到没读过它的黑人知识分子。这本书自从出版以来，几乎没有哪个黑人知识分子没读过它、或者没和它打过交道，也没有谁不清楚杜波依斯主动扛起的任务。他想要为所知甚少的白人读者揭示美国黑人群体复杂、丰富的精神世界，同时为黑人展现一个更广阔的、黑人有权接触的文化王国。我觉得可能要费老大劲才能找到没读过杜波依斯、没受过他影响的黑人作家。如今斯坦福等学校的美国黑人研究圈子里和相关的课上，杜波依斯仍然会被提到。他可以说是一个标杆。

　　Zachary Davis: What you just said makes me think that he does seem to do this interesting balancing act, which is he is a bridge figure between the heights of, you know, Western cultural achievement in terms of having a German education and at Harvard PhD. And I think the tendency of some minority groups to go there might be to abandon this like other identity that they have. And he seems to want to recognize the gifts of both. So it does seem like the gift is really a central idea. You know, look, the heritage of Neitzsche and Beethoven, that's yours, too. You can participate in this. But it doesn't mean that Europeans should ignore your gifts as well.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：您这么说，我突然觉得他确实是在做这种有趣的平衡。他是黑人文化和西方文化的桥梁，去德国深造过，还获得了哈佛的博士学位。我觉得有些少数族裔有种趋势，他们去接受白人教育，然后把本民族文化置于一边，转而拾起新的身份标签。但杜波依斯既想认可白人的贡献，也想认可黑人的贡献。他关注的是贡献本身。看吧，这些是尼采和贝多芬留给我们的宝贵财富，那些是黑人带来的财富，你们也可以参与贡献。而这并不意味着欧洲人应该无视你们的贡献。

　　James Campbell: So that's a really astute point. I think that one of the things he does in the book that really interesting, each of the chapters begins with two epigrams.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：这个想法确实很聪明。我觉得他书里还有一个很有意思的事：每章都以两节诗开头。

　　Zachary Davis: Nearly every chapter opens with a poem from a celebrated white poet.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：几乎每一章都以一首著名白人诗人的诗开篇。

　　James Campbell: But what's fascinating is, there's a second epigram in each chapter, which is musical, and it's a few bars of one of the sorrow songs, of a spiritual. And I think what he's saying is that those two things belong together, that in the pantheon of civilization, these are both great contributions. And in fact, there's been a lot of writing by historians about the particular epigrams that he chose, both in terms of the spirituals and the Christian quotations and how he paired them. But the point, I think simply that you confront at the beginning of every chapter visually is this notion that there is a civilization, there is a human civilization, and that it consists not only of these kind of canonical figures in the Western canon, but it's also that black people have brought that, too.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：不过令人着迷的是，每一章中都还有第二首诗，其实是几行歌词，摘自悲怆的灵歌。而且我认为他意在表明，黑人文化与白人文化是共存的，都屹立于文明的万神殿中，都做出了卓越贡献。实际上，历史学家们对他引用的诗行做过很多研究，角度包括灵歌和基督教诗歌的内涵，以及它们是如何两两组合的。不过重要的是，我认为开头的诗歌呈现了这样的观念：人类缔造了文明，但缔造者不仅有创造了西方经典的西方代表人物，也有做出贡献的黑人。

　　Zachary Davis: Du Bois doesn’t only name the gifts that Black people have brought to American culture—he shows them. He prints the musical notes of these Black spirituals below these quotations from the so-called high culture.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：杜波依斯不仅提到了黑人带给美国文化的贡献，还进一步展示了这些贡献。他把黑人灵歌的音符印在了所谓高雅文化的下方。

　　James Campbell: And so pairing those, refusing to announce either of those, so owning the spirituals at a time when many well-educated black people were trying to turn their back on these as echoes of some kind of earlier, more primitive phase in the races life, owning those spirituals as precious contributions to human civilization, but also not turning your back on or denying Schiller or Beethoven or all these other kind of, you know, figures in the Western canon. That in fact, to be a whole human, to understand human civilization, for humanity to realize itself, meant acknowledging and owning both of these gifts.

　　詹姆士·坎贝尔：他还将他们与白人诗歌两两组合，而不是让彼此单独出现。当时，受过良好教育的黑人一度对黑人灵歌嗤之以鼻，把它们看作黑人族裔早期甚至是原始生活的写照，而杜波伊斯视这些灵歌为人类文明的宝贵贡献。同时，他也不排斥席勒、贝多芬等西方文明中的标杆。其实，人们如果要实现全面的自我发展，深刻理解人类文明，完善人文素养，就要同时接纳、吸收这两种文明的贡献。

　　What’s his relationship with the civil rights movement?

　　他与美国民权运动有何关联？

　　Zachary Davis: It's a beautiful idea. Would you connect us Du Bois's thought with the civil rights movement and maybe conversations about race that are alive today? How do you see his ideas being taken up by some of these important leaders of these different generations?

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：这个观点很美好。您觉得杜波依斯的思想与美国民权运动以及如今种族间的交流（有关种族的会谈）有什么关系呢？他的思想被不同时代的重要领导者所接受，关于这一点您怎么看？

　　James Campbell: At one level, I mean, just as Du Bois is kind of the, in some ways the kind of progenitor or inspiration of most 20th century black writing. There's a way in which he's also a kind of progenitor or founding father of, you know, the 20th century black freedom struggle.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：在某个层面上，杜波依斯引领并激励了20世纪的大多数黑人作家。从某种程度上看，他也引领了20世纪美国黑人为自由而抗争。

　　Zachary Davis: Du Bois was one of the founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People—the NAACP. The organization was founded in 1909 to organize for Black rights. Du Bois founded the organization's monthly magazine, the Crisis. Throughout his life, Du Bois fought for Black people’s right to vote, to be educated, and to generally participate in the wider American culture.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：杜波依斯是美国有色人种协进会的创始人之一。该组织成立于1909年，旨在促进黑人民权。杜波依斯创立了该组织的月刊《危机》。他一生都在争取黑人的选举权、受教育权以及参与更广泛美国文化的权利。

　　James Campbell: And in some sense, you know, you see in him at the very beginning of the 20th century, all of the aspirations and demands of what we think of as a civil rights movement. Yet his own relationship to that movement was complicated. Part of the problem is he has this Pan-African vision that imagines black struggle in the context of a broader anti-colonial struggle of darker races around the world to realize themselves and their own rights to self-determination.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：从某种意义上看，你从他在20世纪初做的努力中，就能看到后来民权运动的所有诉求。不过他自己和民权运动的的关系并没有那么简单，原因之一是他主张的是泛非主义，是将黑人运动视作全世界的有色人种反殖民斗争的一部分，期待所有有色人种实现自我，实现民族自决权。

　　James Campbell: And not all black leaders, indeed, not most black political leaders think that that's a good bet. They're trying very hard to define, you know, many of his allies in the NAACP find that idea off-putting—that we're wasting resources that we should be fighting for our rights here in the United States. And we're not helping by somehow trying to hitch our wagon to some broader anti-colonial politics. His relationship to the what we think of as a kind of classic civil rights movement is also complicated by his increasingly radical politics.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：并非所有的黑人运动领袖都认同这个观点。实际上，大部分人都不赞同。协进会里的许多盟友都努力阐明为什么自己觉得这个理念十分不妥：因为这样做是在浪费资源，我们应该在在这儿、在美国争取我们的权利。而且我们也没有那个能耐把运动拓展为更广泛的反殖民政治斗争。由于他的主张越来越革命性，所以他和传统意义上民权运动的关系并没有那么直接。

　　Zachary Davis: Not only did Du Bois believe in a pan-African vision—he also believed in socialism, which was not a popular viewpoint in America in the mid-20th century. This came to a head after World War II.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：杜波依斯不仅信奉泛非主义，还信奉社会主义，这在20世纪中叶的美国可不太流行。第二次世界大战后，杜波依斯在社会主义方面的活动开展到了高潮。

　　James Campbell: So it’s a kind of horrific story. He's involved with a thing called the Stockholm Appeal in which signatories are trying to renounce the use of nuclear weapons. And at a time when the United States had nuclear weapons and other countries didn't, this is seen in probably in certain senses was, a project of the Soviet Union. And so he's prosecuted for failing to register as a foreign agent. And the prosecution eventually falls apart, but not before the world sees W.E.B. Du Bois led off in handcuffs. He loses his passport, he eventually has to go to the Supreme Court to have it returned. And he has essentially renounced by other black political movements because they can't risk being associated with a red.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：这个故事有点吓人。他参与宣传《斯德哥尔摩呼吁书》，为取缔核武器收集签名。当时全球只有美国拥有核武器，所以呼吁书被认为很有可能是苏联的阴谋。结果他因拒绝承认自己是外国间谍而被起诉。虽然最终诉讼失败，但在此之前世人已经看到杜波依斯被逮捕了。他的护照被没收了，后来不得不去最高法院重办。他也被其他黑人政治运动劝退了，因为他们不想与社会主义扯上关系。

　　Zachary Davis: Du Bois had become too radical for the movement he helped to create. After his passport was restored, he left the United States and, in 1961, settled in Ghana.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：对于他一手创立的运动而言，此刻的杜波依斯太过激进。重新拿到护照后，他离开了美国，于1961年定居到加纳。

　　James Campbell: And there's a certain poignancy that he dies, you know, literally on the evening of the March on Washington. And Roy Wilkins, the head of the NAACP and one of the people had red baited Du Bois out of the association, actually announces the fact of his death from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at the march on Washington.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：令人唏嘘的是，他去世的具体时间是华盛顿大游行期间的一晚。游行时，美国有色人种协进会主席罗伊·威尔金斯在林肯纪念堂的台阶上宣布了他去世的消息。威尔金斯曾参与劝说杜波依斯退出协进会。

　　Zachary Davis: Wow, I had no idea about that period. So moving to today, in what way do you think his thought is in continuity with what is talked about today? And what points do you think there's certain divergences with what we might call critical race studies?

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：哇，这段历史我还真不了解。那如今，您认为他的思想和现在所说的种族平等一致吗？和我们如今的批判性种族问题研究有什么不同之处呢？

　　James Campbell: There was in the early 2000s, I think, an extraordinary kind of revival of Du Bois studies and courses—I taught some of them at various universities You know, it's interesting to sort of wonder why and to note the way in which some of Du Bois's ideas were being picked up and others weren't. So his commitment to Pan African politics was largely not being picked up. His Marxism was largely not being picked up. His vision of the talented tenth of racial progress coming through the kind of activities of educated vanguard pulling a race forward was not picked up.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：在21世纪初期，有关杜波依斯的研究和课程一度重新火了起来，我在好几个大学都教过其中的一些课。这很有意思，你会好奇为什么他的某些观点又被提了起来，有些则没有。他的泛非主义还有马克思主义思想就基本上没被提到。他的“有天赋的十分之一”，也就是让受到良好教育的一波人推动自己族裔的进步，这个构想也没被提到。

　　James Campbell: I think what was mostly picked up was the idea of double consciousness, and it was in some ways, in my opinion, misappropriated the sense of dualism, became a kind of for many university-based African-American intellectuals, a descriptor of their own personal existential experience of living as black intellectuals in a white world. And so there was an extraordinary rediscovery of the work, but it often struck me as quite narrow. And in some ways often quite self-referential.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：我觉得重新提到的主要是“双重意识”。从某方面看，这个理论是二元论的变体。对大学里的很多黑人知识分子来说，这个理论恰当地描述了他们作为黑人知识分子生活在白人世界的感受，所以这部作品被这样大规模的重新提起。但我常常觉得它也有局限性，在某些方面经常自我指涉。

　　How did the book change the world?

　　这本书如何改变了世界？

　　Zachary Davis: Could I ask you to say, you know, in this pithy ways you can. How did this book, in your view, change the world?

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：您可以和我们讲讲这本书是如何改变世界的吗？可以稍微概括一下吗。

　　James Campbell: At the time Du Bois produces this book, you know, it is what we call too easily the Gilded Age. It's an era that's marked not only by the enforcement of violent civic, political and social or racial exclusion, but also by an extraordinarily kind of materialistic temper. I mean, I guess we'd recognize it because it looks a lot some ways like our own society.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：杜波依斯这本书出版时，美国正处于所谓的镀金时代。当时的美国在民权、政治和社会的方方面面都排斥黑人，同时举国上下都沉浸在物质主义的氛围中。我想我们如今重提杜波依斯，或许是因为当今社会在某些方面和当时非常相似。

　　Zachary Davis: We are in Palo Alto right now, after all.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：毕竟我们现在可是在（美国加州的）帕洛阿尔托市。

　　James Campbell: And you know Du Bois is basically critiquing not only kind of prevailing notions about, you know, what kind of education or culture should be accessible to black people. But he's also creating an entire culture. This is the body, not more than meat. What does it mean to say that if a man is worth a dollar, he'll be treated as a dollar? There is a wider, fuller, truer life out there. He uses words like truth and beauty and he capitalizes them.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：杜波依斯不仅在批判当时流行的黑人应当接受何种教育的观点，同时他也在创造一种文化。人的价值不仅在于其肉身。“假如一个人有一美元的价值，那别人才会觉得他值一美元”，这是什么鬼话？人有比这更高远、更趋于本质的追求。他提到了“真理”、“美”之类的词汇，并且认为这些是重点。

　　James Campbell: And so I think, you know what is revelatory about this book is not only it's exposure of interiority of an interior black life, not only of its recovery of the true kind of black, white roots of American culture, but also of its biting critique of a society that had become narrow and crabbed and sort it a dusty desert of dollars in which, as he says, the Negro is the sole oasis.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：所以我觉得，这本书之所以启迪人心，不仅仅因为它展现了黑人的精神生活，重新发掘了美国文化中黑人与白人文化之根，更因为它尖锐地批评了那个狭隘浮躁的社会，把它比作一片灰蒙蒙、用美元堆成的沙漠，而把黑人比作其中的唯一绿洲。

　　Zachary Davis: I think books like this are often sort of shunted into, oh, that's like, you know, the black culture book.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：这样的书往往被归类为讲黑人文化的书。

　　James Campbell: Correct.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：没错。

　　Zachary Davis: But there's lessons about life and humanity that all of us need to read.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：但书里关于生活与人性的内容值得所有人阅读。

　　James Campbell: I think that's absolutely right. You know that one of the problems with a book like this and what you know. So, look, I'm a white historian and I chose a book by a black author. And I don't know who else you're getting here, but I bet that's pretty unusual because, you know, we continue to inherit from this horrifying history that Du Bois is evoking here notions about who has access or rights to what culture.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：我完全赞同。这样的书会遇到一个问题。我自己是白人历史学家，读了一本黑人作家的书。我不知道还有谁会来看这本书，但我敢说这肯定不普遍，因为我们还是会不自觉地继承杜波依斯书中那个时代的错误观念，认为同一类人才可以接触属于他的那种特定的文化。

　　James Campbell: And I think Du Bois is trying to explode that. He's basically, you know, there is a wider kingdom of culture to which we are all bringing our gifts, that the spirituals belong alongside Schiller and Beethoven as great contributions to human civilization. And a book like this, that is not in any way simply about black life, but is about American society as a whole in a particular historical moment, a book that is explicitly addressed to white readers. This is not a book that we should simply shunt into the kind of African-American history curriculum. This is a book for all of us.

　　詹姆斯·坎贝尔：而杜波依斯做的就是驳斥这个观点。在他看来，存在着一个更广阔的文化王国，所有族裔都为它添砖加瓦。黑人灵歌与席勒、贝多芬一起为人类文明做出了巨大贡献。这样的书涉及的不只是黑人生活，而是特定历史时期的整个美国社会，而且是一本专门面向白人读者的书。它不应该仅仅出现在美国黑人历史课上，而是应该出现在所有人的案头。

　　Zachary Davis: Writ Large is a production of Ximalaya. Writ Large is produced by Galen Beebe, Jack Pombriant, and me, Zachary Davis, with help from Feiran Du, Ariel Liu, Wendy Wu, and Monica Zhang. Our intern is Liza French, and our theme song is by Ian Coss. Don’t miss an episode. Subscribe today in the Ximalaya app. Thanks for listening.

　　扎卡里·戴维斯：本节目由喜马拉雅独家制作播出。感谢您的收听，我们下期再见！